Acupuncture boosts IVF pregnancy success

One of the most fascinating things in medicine is acupuncture. I've been fascinated by acupuncture for many years and decades. I'm still not sure exactly how it works or why it works, but it definitely does work because many of my ophthalmology patients tell me about their great acupuncture experiences. So I thought it'd be a great time to get a guest who is an expert in the field of acupuncture. And today on episode 113 of the Doctor Podcast Sicard Files program, we have Nicole Lang, who is an expert in acupuncture.

Nicole is a licensed acupuncturist and holistic fertility educator based in the Minneapolis, MN. And she's the founder of Life Healing Life, which is a practice dedicated to Women's Health and fertility since 2006. Many years of experience. She has a neat, unique approach. She seamlessly blends traditional Chinese medicine with evidence based science and trauma informed care, focusing exclusively on fertility struggles, IVF support, pregnancy and infertility and emotional health. And we're going to discuss a lot about fertility and IVF today, which is even more fascinating and exciting for me.

Her work over 18 years basically has supported thousands of IVF cycles, in vitro fertilization cycles, and achieving outcomes that surpass many fertility studies, emphasizing whole person care for thriving pregnancies and lives beyond infertility. She's an educational advocate. Through her practice and online courses like IVF Insider and her blog, she empowers women and couples with compassionate education based support, redefining fertility care and a focus on empowerment and well-being. So Nicole, I want to thank you very much for taking time to join us today to talk about acupuncture in general and specifically about acupuncture and infertility in IVF.

Really appreciate it. It's. A lot and I'm very excited and honored to be here. So thanks. All right, so let's start. Can you explain what acupuncture is, how it works from both a traditional Chinese medicine perspective and a modern scientific viewpoint? Yeah. So acupuncture is the insertion of thin, sterile single use needles through the skin. And there are about 400 classic Chinese medicine points that we learned when we're getting our Master's degree in Chinese medicine. And it is, it is a, a really old form of medicine that is observation based and experiential.

So when we start from the original idea of what we're doing with Chinese medicine, you'll hear things like it. It opens up obstructions in the energetic flow in the body and it stimulates points and sort of gives the body messages to do things, the organs, the chi, the energy, and then the body responds. So the way that I, I describe this to my modern patients is if you imagine you'd never been in a modern building and someone locked you in one, you would find a light switch without any understanding of electricity or current.

You could say this, I observe that this does this. And sometimes there are those acupuncture points and treatments that feel like that, that are just, oh, that's doing that. But a lot of times it's more like a thermostat. And so my job is to to analyze and to listen and to pick the right thermostats. And then again, without the understanding of the ductwork or the pilot light or any of this, we can pick the correct thermostats in the body to do the things that we're looking to have happen and then they happen.

And so that's how it was looked at classically. I think it's really interesting that obstetrics and gynecology are the oldest specialty within Chinese medicine. So we've been looking at the oldest textbook in Chinese medicine for a specialty is obstetrics, and it's 3500 years old. And so we've just done it and it works. Now. You asked how it works from modern perspective, which is kind of my jam. It really is fascinating to be working in this field right now because we can do things like fMRI and Doppler studies and blood draws and look at some of the behind the scenes things that are happening with this stimulation to the body.

So these acupuncture needles being put into the body are are making a complicated cascade through stimulating the nervous system. They do things like the gene expression gets altered, cellular communication changes, blood flow patterns change, the types of brain waves that are happening in the brain and where the brain is active is changing. And so there's many, many things that it does from a modern perspective and there's probably many things that we don't understand yet. And that's a beautiful thing in my mind.

Right. That's awesome. So basically it's it's 3500 years of experience and now we're finding that there's actually scientific evidence that shows that that experience is based on science and knowledge. Absolutely. And it's, it's interesting because it's easy to get ethnocentric about it, but I heard a story of a, of a orthopedic surgeon who went to study Chinese medicine in China. And he was kind of trying to show off a little bit. He, he said this in a, in a course that I took. And he said, you know, he's talking to the Chinese doctor and saying, isn't it interesting how they found all of where these a fair nerve bundles are and yadda, yadda.

And, and, and that they put the acupuncture points where the nerves are and, and the Chinese medicine doctor said or the points are where the chi is and the nerves are where the chi is. So however you look at it, it works. Yeah, can't dispute 3500 years of experience. Now there are some patients I've spoken to are still a little bit doubting about this. Can you tell us about some of the common misconceptions about acupuncture and how do you address them with your patients and clients? Yeah. I mean, I, I think there's quite a few misconceptions.

1 is that it's, it's kind of woo woo or just placebo, right? And so one of the things that I'd like to lead with that is just meet people where they are and say 30% of any medicine is placebo and they're studying it at Harvard, right? So, so we're looking at how can we utilize that as part of good medicine? How can we tap into the mind part of the mind body and say, when you're more confident, when you're more comfortable, when you do things that feel like they're slowing down and taking care and being thoughtful about your care, that matters.

And that translates to neurochemical changes, that changes to, to digestive changes and things that happen through our Vegas system. And so, so it's OK if you think it's just placebo, start there. That's 30% of a procedure, a pill, a surgery. And then the research really shows that it's beyond the 30%. You can, you can demonstrate that it's much more effective than that, but it's OK. That's really how I got my master's degree was, I don't know if this is just Tibo and I'm into it, but I, I want to learn more and that feels perfectly reasonable.

Another thing that I think people misunderstand is that you have to, they think it's like pick a medicine, pick a medicine. Like are you into Western medicine? Are you into alternative medicine? And really the best use of both of them is very complimentary because what one does well, the other one is at a loss for and vice versa. And so it really pains me when I hear both sides, especially the people on my side actually demonizing Western medicine or saying, you know, if you're, if you're doing hormone treatment or things like that, that's somehow a failure.

My goal is always to be patient centered and truly holistic. And what that looks like is whatever serves the person in their goals and in their best health and in their best quality of life. And so if that involves an SSRI and acupuncture or if that involves A fertility treatment and acupuncture or acupuncture is not the thing for them because they tried it and it's not not the thing that they like. That's all beautiful. And we need to be truly holistic in that way. So there are synergies between acupuncture and other types of medicine and it's our job to take advantage of those synergies.

Absolutely. And they may not work for everyone, but they do work for many people. I as I said, I've seen many patients who swear by it for all sorts of purposes. Now, from a mechanical perspective, how thin are these needles? You mentioned they're sterile and single use, so there's no risk of infection. How thin are they and and how deep do you actually go into the skin? Yeah, I have some YouTube videos where I demonstrate on myself. People are curious about this. I just hold my arm up. So I, I have a package here that they're just these single use packages.

I, I use 10 in a pack and there's a guide tube so I'm never touching the shaft of the needle. So these are sterilized using the gold standard of medical sterilization in the factories where they're made. And then you open them and the needle goes into a guide tube can kind of show you here. And it's a 36 gauge needle. So, so you can see it's and then there's no lumen, right? You don't have to put anything through the needle. And so there's no hole in the middle. I would never be touching a needle like this that I was going to put in somebody, but they're very, very pliable.

And the guide tube that I was talking about is this little plastic again, sterilized tube. And if you put the needle in there, you'll see that it is really just slightly shorter than the needle is long, hard to see. So then I can put this on the skin and tap it and that gets it through the, the most superficial part of the skin where the nerve endings are very quickly. Most people that are including extremely nervous, I'll put a needle and they'll go, wait, you did it already. So there's, there's very little sensation, especially when you're doing the kind of trauma informed acupuncture that I'm doing.

Now, there are instances where there's a lot of sensation because they're treating a, a musculoskeletal issue or something like that. But the kind of acupuncture that I do is very light sensation and it should feel very relaxing. And one of the coolest things. This is how I tell people that are skeptical to start. I'll put it in the depth is anywhere from, I would say 1/4 of an inch to an inch and a half. And it can be in different angles. It's not always perpendicular into the body. So it can be very transcutaneous, different, different places.

And one of the things I see to look for is on your first or second visit, depending on how amped up you are, you'll, you'll, I'll say, I'm going to leave you for 30 minutes now and I'm going to come back and you're going to feel like it went really fast. And what we know is happening there is that the brain waves are actually shifting from the kind of brain waves that most adults hang out in during the day, which is GABA and beta brain waves. And then they're switching into the kind of brain waves that children and really good meditators go into where time doesn't matter as much.

And you're not thinking, you're not asleep, but you're not thinking. So these tiny little needles inserted not that far into the body in these little thermostats will elicit that change. And, and people are like, I didn't think that was going to happen and then that did. And that's such such a great way to introduce them to the openness of it. So you're probably just changing nerve conduction and and nerve transmission to the brain and altering the brain waves and nerve conduction in the body. And all the things that come from that.

So my husband has a, a demyelinization of genetic disorder and there's stem cell generation, mesenchymal adult stem cell generation that can happen. That's been shown with certain points. There's interleukin regulation for people with autoimmune factors. And so we can regulate the immune system. So yes, through this stimulation we get all these cascades, all these different ways that we can express epigenetic sequences and things like that and and turn things on and off. Right. I want to stress that a 36 gauge is incredibly thin.

For example, I do Botox and I use now a 31 gauge needle, which is super, super thin and patients hardly feel it at all. So with a 36 gauge, there's probably minimal or sometimes no sensation at all, which. Exactly. Which is terrific. Do you ever get, people ask me, is there bleeding? Do you get any bleeding because you're inserting this little needle? Yeah, it isn't an invasive procedure. So just like any needle, there's a chance that I hit a capillary or a hair follicle or a nerve ending. Right on the money.

And so that can feel a little sharper, but it's it's not anything terribly intense. It just doesn't feel like the mellow nothing that we're going for. So when that happens, I'll back it out so it's not touching that thing or completely remove it and it goes away. And then most a couple drops of blood might come out of the point after I take the needle out, but most often no blood is involved and it's. That's great. Now one thing that I've been always very curious about is how do you know where to insert the these needles to achieve a desired result or effect?

I've heard different people put them in in different places. Some of my patients tell me the needles were inserted in different part of the body where they don't have pain, but it improves the pain in other areas of the body. Can you explain that? Yeah. So like why would an ophthalmology patient have a needle in their foot for something for their eyes? Yeah. So there's there's meridians or channels that are connected that interconnect with one another and create these circuits in the body. And so sometimes we're doing that kind of Meridian based theory work.

There's many different theories in Chinese medicine. So sometimes it's a five element theory, sometimes it's different kinds of masters throughout the years that have made their own different techniques. And so it depends on what your school did and what your, what your theory that you're working in is. I do Zongfu, primarily Chinese acupuncture, which is organ theory. So I'm diagnosing people. The way that I describe my, my differential diagnosis is of course, we're, we're trying to diagnose everything.

So pain is a great example. You might put points where the pain is to unblock the stagnation and get the energy and the chi and the release the fascia and get things to go in that area, right. But in Chinese medicine, there's always a reason for pain. So is there a blockage somewhere else? Is there a tension? Is there not enough oomph? If you think about like a pump system without enough water in it, it will start to, you know, have issues circulating. And so when we're looking at either chew or blood circulation, we're looking at are there deficiencies underlying it?

Is there a lot of inflammation and heat being generated? Does this person have a lot of what we would call dampness? So we're always putting in points that would and then we might be stimulating them in different ways. So if a person were had a very cold pattern, cold congeals in Chinese medicine and so that can cause stagnation, which can cause pain. So menstrual cramps that are better with a with a heating pad would be a good example. And I might put in points to open up the channels that go through the pelvis and help circulate, you know, help decrease uterine contractions and things like that.

But then I'm also probably going to use heat therapies like moxibustion, which is warming the points with a herb that we burn and infrared heat lamp on their on their stomach or Castro packs with a hot water bottle or things like that that I do in my clinic. So you have other devices and techniques and methods in addition to the acupuncture sometimes? Exactly. Fascinating. I'm still amazed that you know all these spots where to insert these. It's a lot of memorization, right? Yeah. Now you also incorporate something called Electro acupuncture.

Can you explain what that is? Yes, if you look at the research that's coming out lately, almost all of it is using Electro acupuncture. So this is a little device that has clips on it, that clip to the end of the metal needle. And it just uses a little 5 Volt battery and it, it sends an electrical signal into the end of one needle through in into the body. And then it's it's on two different points. So it's going to go in the tissues. The electrical current will go in the in between those two points where you've put it.

So there's certain things that you want to be aware of certain safety measures, but overall it's very safe when used correctly. And what this does is if we're thinking about the acupuncture points as 400 little thermostats and we want to turn up the thermostat, we can turn it up with the needle, we can turn it up by heating it up. We can turn it up by adding Electro stem that continues to pulse. And, and interestingly, there's even different research on which frequency which hurts levels you set the Electro stem to releasing different, different neuro chemicals.

So there might be one that's best for releasing GABA and that's great for a person who's really anxious and having panic attacks. And then there are others that are going to decrease the inflammatory response. So depending on what you're treating, you might turn the dials, the frequency of the electricity in different ways and then you leave the room and it's just giving that much more stimulation. So when you look at studies, a lot of times you'll see like, is sham acupuncture that much different than real acupuncture?

When you start entering Electro stim acupuncture into it, it gets even clearer that there are some points that work better than others. Because of course there's going to be some response when you're touching the body and you're doing all the ritual and all the 30% of placebo. And so that's where it gets a little trickier. If the difference is 30 and 45% or but when you get to 30 and with Electro stimulation 60%, then it's a lot clearer to say Oh yes, this is what this is doing. Wow, and they didn't have batteries 35 years ago.

Right. They didn't have 36 gauge needles either. It was a different, different thing. Right, but it's, it still works. So it's still evolving and getting better. With hot Yeah. Now I mentioned you're obviously an expert in acupuncture, but you're a super expert in IVF and fertility issues, in vitro fertilization in acupuncture and your practice emphasizes that. Can you explain about acupuncture and IVF, and particularly about embryo transfer, how that works? Yeah. So that's where we got a lot of good PR as acupuncturists getting through the door to different IVF clinics because reproductive endocrinologists we're seeing that it can increase the out the benefit, the outcomes of their embryo transfer.

So the, the original studies were done in the in the 90s mostly and they were looking at Doppler studies and just IVF outcomes, pregnancy rate, live birth rates and both of those were looking like they were in improved. So the pulsatility index, that's the, the smoothness of the blood flow to the uterus and ovaries was improved with acupuncture and then the out clinical outcomes were better. And so that got us in the door. And that's lovely. And so I, I do a between 50 and 100 embryo transfers a year for 18 years.

And it's such an honor. It's, it's evolved even through that. So now I go on site to most places so people don't have to get in their car and run around and that the evidence supports that that is indeed better. It's not a shock. It's intuitively the the way that we can do it. The least stressful way is always the best. And I go there and I do acupuncture before, sometimes after. I also use these really handy Japanese sticker needles that are 1.5mm long and still 36 gauge that they can wear home and wear them for 24 hours and take them out so they get ongoing stimulation.

So you actually leave the the needles in? And that's not something that all acupuncturists and all types of practice do. But with my patient population being tested for blood borne pathogens regularly, being using needles often for their IVF cycles, feeling confident that they have the the knowledge and the sharps containers and all of that, that's something that I feel really confident in. It's been a great part of my practice. So that's the way we got into the, into the door. But then there's so much more.

I often when I'm meeting with staff, I say, you know, of course we all want these outcomes to be the best they can be. But some of the hardest prognosis, the hardest cases are the people that need acupuncture the most because rather infertility is traumatic. They, the studies show that it's as depressing and anxiety inducing as having cancer. And 46% of people who do fertility treatments have PTSD even when they have a baby at the end of it. So as a trauma informed, woman centered person centered education focused acupuncturist, I want to do the things for the Doppler studies and I want to do the things for the outcomes.

But I also very much want to see that that person's quality of life, that person's mental health, that person's relationships are all not just important and in equally important outcomes, but part of the equation that can either up or down that the outcomes and not just the pregnancy outcomes, but the, the, the OR the pregnancy rates rather, but the pregnancy outcomes, things like intrauterine growth restriction, preeclampsia, preterm birth, We now know. Even when I started, we, we didn't think about placental function.

We didn't think about any of that, but now we know that when there's better blood perfusion, when the person is less stressed, when there's less cortisol, then we're going to build a more vascular placenta, which will then set up the pregnancy for fewer complications. And we know that IVF patients are at a higher increased rate of whether it's the sub fertility or the fertility treatment, something inherent in there or a combination, they are definitely at higher risk. So when you put in something that mitigates that, that offsets that.

Now we're doing not just having positive pregnancy tests, but having healthier pregnancies and people that are less traumatized going into parenting. So it's it's just such an honor. Now, how did you determine the right time to do the acupuncture? Is it before embryo transfer, during the process, afterwards, or all of the above or or some of the above? And how do you determine where to actually insert the needles for IVF purposes? Yeah. So there's a lot of studies. So I didn't, I didn't have to determine all of this, but there were a couple of big meta analysis in 2019 that were really helpful because some of the studies are just way too good to be true and they're not very, very well done studies.

And so when we look at the meta analysis, what we see are things like just consistent treatment throughout. The more regulated, the less time a person spends in a chronic stress response, the better their endocrine function, the better their circulatory function, the better the quality of life. And so if you if you pepper in treatments consistently throughout the stimulation of the ovaries and the egg retrieval process prior to the embryo transfer, which to now in this time in the US is by and large frozen embryo transfer.

So they're two distinct cycles. We can work on things. And I mentioned the stem cell thing, for example, there are some clinics that are doing stem cell washes in the uterus to improve implantation rates and they're not available in all places and they're cost prohibitive in many places. And so I'll add points like that where I see a study and it's not exactly done in the context of IVF, but it's like, OK, this point generates mesenclimal stem cell generation for say a knee injury. I'll just add that point to what I'm doing as a person's going through their egg retrieval or doing getting ready for their embryo transfer.

So it is very, there are lots of protocols, it is well researched. My outcomes are better than any of the studies. And I attribute that to a lot of education and true customization. So if a person also has had a child that was up, throwing up the whole week before, we're going to do other things to support them not getting sick and, and you know, whatever their life calls for. Right now, you mentioned that you actually go to IVF centers and do the treatments there because it's less stressful for the women.

Obviously. Are you called by the women who know about you or heard about you? Or are you called by the doctors to do this? Or is it both? I know it's different in different places, but where I am in the Twin Cities, I am independent and I go on site to three different IVF clinics and then one, they have to come to my office 'cause they don't have the space for acupuncture on site. And I am always employed by the the couple that's doing the transfer. The IVF clinics all have our cards out and suggest it.

I also, because I'm so education based, I educate the staff of various IVF clinics and some pharmaceutical companies and just kind of fill in the gaps and the questions they have, like the ones you're asking me, so that the staff can also understand and say, Oh yeah, I remember Nicole talking about this, this might be good for your cycle and here's her card. But then the person would would reach out to me and then we would do whatever level of care fits their budget. And that could be energetic, you know, their time, their energy, their actual finances, all that should factor in.

Right now you have a IVF insider course that covers practical tips like bladder preparation for embryo transfer and other things. Why are these details important and how they complement the actual acupuncture procedure and improving IVF results? I love this question. This is such a great question. The way that acupuncture is done historically, as you come in, the person looks at your patterns, your however, they're making a differential diagnosis. They're picking the thermostats, they're laying you on the table, doing those points, maybe giving you herbs that go with that and sending you out the door.

And that's how I was trained when I got my master's degree. And I don't know if there's something to be said for a lot of the, the philosophical layers of it are more built into the culture. Probably wouldn't it's being practiced in Asia. But that was not any of this practice. And I just thought, what a, what a shame. If I were doing any of this, if I were just getting acupuncture, I'd want to know how it works. And if I were doing IVF, I'd want to know what's happening and why and if I can influence it and all those things.

So my idea is that I do the Chinese medicine, which is a fantastic reset and a fantastic input for the nervous system in the body. But then if I can have that person walk out the door and understand more so the process is less threatening, feel more empowered so that they're engaged in things that actually serve them instead of things that might be spiraling on forums and spinning out about the unknown and the lack of control in other places. It's just so protective and it's again, upping their odds.

It's actually helping them get stronger in a very uphill place in their life that could be very traumatic. And so things like the IVF Insider and my 90 day course and my one week course, all of these are just places to put energy and learn things so that you're not in the dark and feeling like you're in high alert threat mode throughout these these really hard experiences. That's great. Now, how can acupuncture support women during pregnancy once they're pregnant, particularly those who faced infertility or pregnancy loss in the past?

Yeah, yeah, it's more of the same really. I always joke that your RE has the hard job. I have the easy job. The easy job is to make sure you are more whole and supported and informed. And so we, it's a different tune, but it's, or it's different lyrics, but it's the same tune, right. So I'm still going to be doing stem cell generation and immune system regulation and nervous system resets. And epigenetics has been a really wonderful, I originally was intending to be a geneticist before my own life upheaval brought me to acupuncture.

And so epigenetics has been wonderful to see. Hey, when we see moms that are really stressed and don't have the coping strategies and the resets, then we're priming these kids epigenetically to have thinner stress buffers and have more anxiety and more mood disorders, right? So that alone, I mentioned the placental development ongoing giving support for that and then again, the quality of life, right? Because if you have had three losses and the furthest you've ever made it is 6 weeks and then you had a ultrasound show, there was no heartbeat at 8 weeks.

You really have to get past that eight week part of pregnancy before things feel even remotely hopeful for most people for the majority of the time. And so to have that that humane support and that connection and that validation to say you don't have to be positive yet. You don't have to be decorating your nursery. I'm here to support your nervous system because it's in this hyper vigilance mode for good reason, because of your lived experience. And so we're just going to honor that and work with it.

Let me shut all your tabs and restart your computer when it comes to your nervous system. And I got you. And it's just a really humane thing. I, I read an article, I wish I had saved it. It was an NPR maternal mortality expert on an article that said we treat the babies like the peanut butter cup and the mom like the little paper cup that it comes in. You know, we're just baby baby baby with obstetrics and delivery and postpartum and not shocking, the outcomes aren't as good as if we would keep it woman centric.

Right. You know, your voice and just the way you speak calms me down. So I think that on top of the acupuncture, just having you around is going to relax everybody and make them more comfortable. No, not. Sleeping like. Really relaxed and comfortable. That's great. Now you also mentioned that there's specific ACU pressure points that actually calm the uterus during pregnancy. How do you know that and and how do you determine what those points are? Again, there's lots of combination of classics. So this, because obstetrics is such an old specialty, if you could afford medicine 3500 years ago, you, you had money and you cared a lot about your lineage.

And so there are prevent miscarriage points or calm the uterus or stop uterine bleeding. There's all sorts of classic points. So we start with that again, not having to understand the ductwork behind it and just say, OK, this is the combination for a threatened miscarriage when there's a lot of cramping happening or this is the and I love, I love Also, I should say I want to be very realistic and clear with patients. I don't think I can stop an unviable pregnancy from progressing any more than I think I can give a person a miscarriage or an abortion.

They've done studies on these things. If we could do that, that would be a thing. People would want acupuncture abortions, honestly. And so there's not, there are points that are caution points that can be over stimulating or too much for a body and if unless they have certain patterns of imbalance when pregnant. But there's no points that are forbidden. And there's nothing magical about it. We're just, you know, doing the things that have been practiced for thousands of years. And again, then you put on like a great combination that I do during pretty much every embryo transfer.

It's worked in the mix. Are these two points that have been studied in the context of surgeons and doctors performing DN CS? And so they asked the surgeons, they said, OK, we're going to try this combination of acupuncture points, We're going to try this other combination and we're going to try lidocaine on the cervix. And then we want to hear how easy it is to get through the cervix and access the uterus. And this particular point combination was better than the other two, statistically significantly better than the other two.

And then they asked the patients how how uncomfortable, how comfortable were you after this DNC procedure? And again, there were improvements with this combination point. So these are two points on the lower leg that you do together. And in the context of IVF, we're doing it to get the catheter with the embryos through the cervix. Of course, there's many layers of things that they're doing to set that up with ultrasound and with a full bladder and with sometimes with things like Valium, not at all clinics, but at some clinics.

But also you add the acupuncture and it's just that much less pressure on the embryo, that much less cramping for the uterus and discomfort for the person, that much easier for the doctor doing the procedure and that all UPS the odds. Wow, that's. Amazing. Now you can also use acupuncture to help pregnant women or having a lot of back pain and pelvic pain. Is that right? Yeah. There's I, I was very lucky early in my career to study with probably the main modern obstetric acupuncturist. She's from New Zealand and she taught these protocols that these really are like turning on the lights sometimes where it's, you know, a lot of pubic symphasis pain.

And I'll do this crazy kind of combination of points with this specific stimulation and people get up off the table and are like my pubic symphasis doesn't hurt anymore it. Works pretty quickly, right? Away and like carpal tunnel in pregnancy, carpal tunnel doesn't actually respond that well in general to acupuncturist like the VA system doesn't cover it. It's not a it's not shown to have enough of a benefit. But I find that during pregnancy acupuncturist fantastic. I have people that are you know, I can barely work.

I'm a I'm a I'm a stylist. I cut hair for a living and can't hold on to my scissors. And we do this Electro or acupuncture on the on the wrist and get the, the chi and the circulation to go and smooth out there. And it's like, oh, I'm getting my, I'm not waking up at night with incredibly uncomfortable fingers and I'm not dropping things and feels a lot more doable for the last five weeks of pregnancy and things like that, right? Have there been any suggestions that there might be some side effects or complications from doing acupuncture either during IVF or during pregnancy?

I mean, there are certainly studies, like I mentioned going off site as an aside before there was one study that I love the Ari who found it, sent it to me when it was published and it said acupuncture was harming IVF outcomes. And, and it was a study where they had the, the couple go off site to an acupuncturist. They had never met before that day and it harmed. And I wrote this RE back and I said, I love this study. This is such a great study because the, the actual conclusion of that study was we see all these other studies, all these meta analysis that say that it's helpful.

And so we have to take a step back and say, what's different about this protocol? What's different about this? And it wasn't the points, it wasn't the acupuncture, it was the context of it. And so I'll have people that are, I heard that acupuncture is great. I'm terrified of needles, my transfers in two days. Can you do my, my treatment? And I, I say no, you know, unless you have time to come in and see me tomorrow once before you're transferring, you know, that you're comfortable with me and acupuncture.

I'm not going to come on the day of. And I, I'm unique that way, But I, I cite the, the studies and say that. So there are instances where the, the stress of it undoes the benefit of it. And so just like anything, you have to be customized and listen to your unique body and needs. There are also some technical things, right? I wouldn't just want anybody sticking needles in my body. There are, there are things like pneumothorax and things that we're we're trained to avoid. And statistically, acupuncture is safer than taking a Tylenol when it comes to severe adverse effects.

So it's a very safe medicine overall, it's just the benefits are amplified if it's a right fit and mitigated if it's not. Right. So you basically meet with your patients 1st and talk to them and get them comfortable before you do the procedure. You don't just come in, meet them the first time and right well, anybody who meets you and speaks with you is going to definitely want you to do it and be very comfortable about it. Thank you. After this program, you're going to get calls from all over the country, so I hope.

Well, and I was tired of being a bottleneck. I was tired of being a bottleneck, honestly, because I was trying to teach other acupuncturists how to do this for eight years. And this is I was listening to your conversation with Doctor Smith. I loved it. That episode was I was like, I've never seen anybody practice closer to the way I practice and be advocating for what I advocate for for 18 years. It was so validating. He's talking about patient centered education focused true holistic medicine. And, and so I've tried to teach other acupuncturists how to do this.

The response is, well, we are holistic, It's natural, It's been around for this many years. I'm like, but you're not teaching anything, you're not listening, you're not customizing. And so I got cut from a conference in in Vancouver because patient education, I was teaching a class about patient education and they said, well, we've just found that the the marketing classes aren't well attended because that's the one category of CE us that acupuncturists aren't required to do on their cycles of continuing education recertification.

And, and I was like, OK, that's the categories are biomedicine, Chinese medicine, ethics, safety and marketing. And patient education is put into marketing by the National Certification Commission of Acupuncture in North America. And so I thought that's where I started doing my online programs direct to patients because I just thought, OK, I know who doesn't think this is marketing. It's the people that want to understand how to do the bladder prep and not feel like they're going to have an accident in the middle of the the most important day that they've worked for years to get to.

And you know, I want, I would want to understand these things about my body, what the medications are doing. So that's why my programs exist is so that even if a person can't work with me, they can get this education and then fill in the acupuncture elsewhere. That's great. Great idea. Now is acupuncture covered by insurance or does it depend on the diagnosis and and who's doing it? How does that work? Yeah, it's, it's like, it's it, it varies from state to state. It's a lot more like chiropractic, I would say, where it has more or less coverage in different places.

I don't accept insurance because where I am, fertility isn't part of a covered diagnosis and that's pretty much all I do. And the, the rate that a person would have to practice at to make a living doing the kind of reimbursement programs that they have an insurance here, I would just have to crank through putting needles and people on tables and not educating and talking. So, but, but, but there are some of my patients, I'll give them a super bill and they'll, they'll get partial reimbursement. And there certainly are some acupuncturists for lots of other conditions that are accepting insurance and can do great work within that.

There's also community acupuncture, which is sort of group recliner style acupuncture for people that are on a budget that it would be otherwise inaccessible. And it can be like $30 a treatment and you just show up and, and get the needles in the more of a group setting. And that can be a really. Wonderful thing to make it more available in more places. Right now, you mentioned you've done acupuncture on yourself, is that right? Sure have. And I assume it works very well for yourself. It is it possible for a patient who's had several acupuncture treatments to get these needles and do it by themselves on themselves?

The needles are regulated so people can't buy them without a master's degree or a doctorate. But I that said, I do have people that really like the simulation of like the little sticker needles or beads in between. So I'll give them, you know, 3 when they take out the ones that I put in, they can pop in some more for like there's a point on the sternum that's been studied by the American Cardiovascular Association and it regulates heart rate variability and respiratory rate, right? So they put it on people that were coming out of surgeries and it helped regulate them coming out of surgery.

And so I'll, I'll add that and say, I trust you. You work with needles with IVF and so you can pop that in. And then I do have a fertility freebie. I have lots of fertility freebies on my website that you can sign up and get a whole acupressure guide with a glossary in the back. So it'll say if you are having a headache or if you're getting ready for an embryo transfer or if you're, you know, struggling with nausea, this, this is the acupressure point. And then it'll link to a YouTube video on my YouTube channel that explains how to find it and what kind of stimulation you can do.

So even if a person is looking around and saying, oh, you know, this person does feel like they're not a good fit for me or it would stress me out financially, there's lots of ways. And again, if we're thinking about the thermostats, it's less stimulation. We're only doing a couple of degrees, but I have a video about using a 10s machine. So it's not through the skin, but it's it's a superficial electrical stimulation using the little stick on pads. I think that can be a great thing. I've had patients with polycystic ovarian syndrome where the research says do it daily.

They'll come and see me once a week for the electrostem and then they'll start doing the transcutaneous stuff and they'll start ovulating and it it really changes the hypothalamic pituitary communication and the pulsing speeds and things like that in the nervous system, which is that's what we want. Pretty amazing. Now you mentioned you have a website and YouTube videos. Is there a website that people can go to to find out more about this and watch your different programs? Absolutely. So if you go to life healing life as opposed to doctor fixing, patient life, healing life.com, then there's a tab at the top that says online education and there's fertility freebies.

There's the IVF Insider, there's my 90 day or the Baby You want, which that name comes from the idea that the baby everyone really goes into trying to have a family with is a baby that's born from health and abundance and all these wonderful things. And it's a, a real shame that that can get lost in the shuffle. And it's just like any baby by any means. And sometimes it's medical treatment is necessary, but we still don't want to lose that context of we want to have healthy parents and healthy lives that are bringing these babies in.

So that's my 90 day program. Great. I'll include that website and the program so people can find it. Is there any evidence or any studies done on the babies that are born after IVF in women who've had acupuncture? Are these babies healthier? Are they happier? Yeah, that's a great. I mean, there are. I would have to look and see if there are specific studies. I mean, there's lots of studies that say women without chronically elevated cortisol or better managed cortisol have less preterm birth and intrauterine growth restriction and things like that.

So I would imagine there are studies that say that. I know in my own patient population, I don't see anything like the complications that are associated with IVF and even, you know, have twins that are get ready for an early NICU experience and they're getting induced and vaginally birthing twins that are, you know, 6 1/2 lbs. And so there's, there's a lot of complicated biology and there is sub fertility. And this is a complicated medical condition. So it's hard to suss out what's what. But I think what's very clear is that the kinds of things that we know good acupuncture done in the context of of being truly holistic can can only enhance.

That's great. Now if people are in the Minneapolis or Twin Cities area and and near you, they obviously know where to go. But what do people around the country do to find a good acupuncturist like you who's experienced and has all this knowledge and, and background? How do they find a good acupuncturist? Yeah. So there's a great website to start with. That's the NCCAOMI can send you the link that you can put in the show notes. That's the National Certification Commission of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine.

And this is the, the organization that if, if your state requires board certification, most of them do not all of them. Then you take your, your acupuncture board exams through NCCAOM and you get credentialed and there's a continuing education requirements and things like that that are required by them. So that's a great site to look and say, okay, this person has a masters or a doctorate, they've done 3000 or more hours of training. And then if you see that there's multiple people in your area, I encourage people to look at websites, do some reading, get a feel because there is a wide variety.

Acupuncture was really making a big shift when I started school in 2003. Prior to that, it was really a second career and fairly kind of hippie and and just, yeah, I burned out on sales and now I'm going to do this in my extra bedroom and and that's lovely. And that was an important step. But then by the time I was starting acupuncture school was a lot of people that were coming out of their undergraduate looking at it as a medical career, starting practices. So, so get a feel for what your style is, what you're looking for.

Read what they're saying. I think there's a lot of magical thinking, unfortunately, in any sort of holistic medicine. I call that faux holism. It's a very important something to call out. I have a whole web or blog post about it where it's it's natural, but it's not holistic because it's harmful. So people that are professing things like you have to manifest a baby or you have to believe for something to work. I say, you know, think about if you were going in for heart surgery. So I'm gonna give you a glue stick and a magazine and said, you know, cut out pictures of people with healthy hearts.

I would throw the glue stick at them. So let's not.

Great points. I know that some physicians, MD physicians or DO physicians also do acupuncture. Is there any difference between their acupuncture and and what you do? Or is that degree really not that essential? So it depends. There are certainly M DS and D OS that have an chiropractic doctors that also get their masters degree and do thousands of hours of training. There's also a additional credentialing that a lot of those professions in a lot of places can take something like 100 hour or 200 hour course and then add that on.

Now they have a lot of the biomedicine. 1/3 of Chinese medicine masters program is biomedicine. We dissect cadavers, we do things that we learn pharmacology and things like that. So they already have that. And so they can do a lot of really wonderful things and it can be a great combination of East and West. But they may not have the deeper nuanced, really subtle differential diagnosis for more chronic subclinical stuff. They may have more of a yeah, these. This is what I do when a person has IBS, it can be fantastic.

This is what I do. If a person has chronic headaches, that could be fantastic. And again, some of them are fully, fully licensed by the NCCOM as well, so you'd have to dig in each individual. Right. So that's the place to go. Yeah, that's awesome. And P TS, I should mention P TS are there's dry needling, people ask about dry needling, which is it uses acupuncture needles, usually a lot bigger needle. So they're maybe going to use like a 26 or 28 gauge needle and they're doing trigger points where it's releasing knots and and doing sort of trigger points on the body.

And I've had it done, I've had two natural childbirths. I would say it was up there, but I it can be really helpful for like sports medicine, injuries and things like that. And I don't have any bones about different people doing different styles. I know some acupuncturists kind of get into a turf war, but I think that's not a style that I would particularly want to do. And there's so many people in need of good care and so many different kinds of things that they're seeking care for that I think that's another option that some people will fall into and often does have some insurance coverage too.

Wow, that's great. So I've learned a lot about acupuncture today and, and IVF and acupuncture from you. I, I really appreciate your taking the time to educate me and the public about this. It's a very important topic that I think is not discussed enough, so hopefully we can spread the word together. Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. My pleasure.

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